Outlaw. So you are saying you can take two African American men and put them into the same situation and if one says that he felt racially prejudiced against and the other feels that he did not experience racial prejudice. You are going to call one of them a liar and believe the other one?
Richard Oliver
JoinedPosts by Richard Oliver
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Like I said earlier
"I am not trying to get into a discussion or an argument about homosexuality and Witnesses."
and
"My point on this thread is that there are things that are opinion and everyone has the right to their opinion and can yell, scream and rail against Watchtower over how they feel or what is their opinion. But there are things that are just facts, and opinion cannot change facts, no matter how much they believe and feel that it is wrong or should be changed."
Again my point was not to get into a discussion about homosexuality and Witnesses. The only reason I brought up that I as gay was that there was a question of if I actually had a problem with a Watchtower teaching. My problem has never been that I felt that as a whole or as official policy that Witnesses or Watchtower was homophobic. Like I said before, my personal definition of homophobia maybe different or the same as other people but it is my personal definition as a gay man. My problem with Witnesses is that I cannot have a husband and be a Witness. I know that is their right to choose who they accept as a member and who they do not. Do I wish that they would change it? I really wish they would, but I know that I am not going to hold my breath for it.
The whole discussion was to show that there is a difference between facts and opinion. I have not seen a piece of proof that Watchtower calls gay people mentally ill in the last 15 years or so. Do I have proof that they call it abhorrent and a sin? There is plenty of proof of that. But they do not call it a mental condition anymore. Do I personally need a retraction of any previous statements, that if they did state that? I personally do not. May other gay people feel that they need that, that is certainly possible and that is up to them to make that decision.
I have not diminished anyones personal feelings here that Watchtower did not hurt anyone here. What I said was there are some things that are actual facts, some that are anecdotal evidence and some that are just opinion. Should everything carry the same weight when indicting a whole group of people? I do not feel that way. Many people here believe the opposite. But no one can deny that there are real and substantial differences between those three things. At least for myself I place more weight on actual verifiable facts and not so much weight on the other two, when i read it coming from other people.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Outlaw. Like I said. My personal definition as a gay man of homophobia maybe different from yours or from others. Some people may find it too lax and some may find it to rigid.
It is the way that the person who is receiving the prejudice views it. There is even a debate on the term of homophobia. It is not a definable term, at least that is how
There is even a debate on the term of homophobia. It is not a definable term, at least that is how
I am not African American and would never dare question when an individual of that community feels that they are experiencing racism. And guess what you cannot tell anyone else when they are experiencing any kind of prejudice. There are legal definitions of prejudice, but there are the subjective definition of prejudice that each person has to decide what triggers it for them. For me it is verbal assault by someone. I have been called Faggot, and that hurts me. Do I mind when people who I know and love jokingly call me a faggot or queer, no, because I know what they mean and they had no malice behind that statement.
So please don't try and tell me how I am supposed to feel and what I define as homophobia. Unless your gay, honestly you have no authority even to talk about that.
There is even a debate on the term of homophobia. It is not a definable term, at least that is how i view it.
Use of homophobia, homophobic, and homophobe has been criticized as pejorative against LGBT rights opponents. Behavioral scientists William O'Donohue and Christine Caselles state that "as [homophobia] is usually used, [it] makes an illegitimately pejorative evaluation of certain open and debatable value positions, much like the former disease construct of homosexuality" itself, arguing that the term may be used as an ad hominem argument against those who advocate values or positions of which the user does not approve.[112]
Even in 1973 there were gay activists who did not mind the DSM keeping homosexuality as a mental condition because they saw the possible consequences that could have followed. So there is no clear definition of homophobia.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Saename:
Well apparently you won't read this. But that is your opinion. I never said that your opinion was wrong. All I said was you can't say because the DSM didn't put in homosexuality into their list of mental conditions that is the same as them backtracking and telling all of those people in the past that they in fact don't have a mental condition. My point was that if you want to say that Watchtower should say homosexuality is not a mental condition, that the mental health community official diagnostic instrument and manual should do so too.
I do believe that there is a difference between the other sheep and the anointed. Again do I feel that only JWs will be saved at Armageddon? I do not. Do I feel that Watchtower should not allow openly gay couples be witnesses? I do. But I won't hold my breath for that. But there is a difference between not liking gay people and being homophobic.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Seamane: You said
"So, yeah, I know the DSM had homosexuality listed as a mental illness, but they removed it from their diagnostic list 44 years ago. Almost half a century ago. They changed. The Watchtower still has not."
You even acknowledge something. The DSM never came out and said that homosexuality is no longer a mental illness, they just never put it back in. In recent years, lets say the last 15, please tell me an article where it says that homosexuality is a mental condition or something like that. I have acknowledged that Watchtower views it as a sin. I don't agree with their interpretation of it, I believe that, only applies to the anointed.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Orphan Crow. Of course in this setting it is inconsistent with the majority of people on this site. But that is also a very narrow sample size and, I don't mean offense but biased, to say it is inconsistent with the experience of every witness has had. People on this site and other "ex-jw" sites may have had such a bad experience that they feel that they have to be active against Watchtower and Witnesses. I am sure that if you asked people who were both witnesses and non-witnesses, who are not extremely biased one way or the other, or who recognizes their biased feelings. I don't think that my views would be inconsistent. Honestly, I don't think many people opinions on this site would be inconsistent. I don't think that you would really see a bell curve really. I think you would see a pretty even display from one end of the spectrum to the other.
If you go out to a Tea Party Rally and ask everyone do you like Barack Obama I am sure you would see a huge percentage of people who would tell you no. Just like in the same manner, if you go to the DNC last year and asked the same question you would get a lot of people who said yes. But if you ask a cross section of the entire country you get an approval rating that is in the middle, with a decent percentage on the side of we hate him and on the side that we love him
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Also Simon. You cannot say that enough people telling the same story automatically proves that it is a fact. There are are ton of people who give somewhat similar stories of seeing Big Foot. Does that mean that Big Foot is real? Most reputable biologist would say that Big Foot does not exist. So it is not just because enough people give a similar story that makes it true. There has to be other proof beyond the stories. The Illinois Supreme Court recently ruled that for a number of criminal cases the only evidence, cannot be eye witness testimony. Even judges recognize how faulty eye witness testimony can be in convicting someone of a notorious crime.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Outlaw. I am not going to do this with you. You say I have straw man arguments and use the definition to prove your point. And if I argue with you, you just would bring back that same definition. I do the exact same thing to you and you can't understand the point. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence by itself, it cannot prove something when that is the only evidence you have.
I never said that your experiences were not valid as to what you have come to a conclusion about Witnesses and Watchtower. My point was everyone has different experiences and unless it is an actual fact, all it is, is your personal experience. You want to take other people's subjective experiences away from them because they don't line up exactly with yours.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Simon. I agree with you if there is a lot of the same stories it can be compelling evidence. But there is a difference between compelling circumstantial evidence and compelling objective evidence.
In medicine, Pulmonologists treat people who come in and say that they have asthma because they feel like they can't catch their breath like their buddy, who has asthma can't. So that patient, may honestly feel that he has asthma because of the way he feels and the way he has heard his friend talk about his asthma. But the doctor won't just take the patient's word for it, and say "Well you feel you have asthma so you have asthma." No the doctor looks at the patient's subjective symptoms but also looks to measure objective symptoms, so he runs diagnostic tests to prove what the patient feels is in fact asthma or is not. If the tests come back that the patient doesn't have asthma, guess what the patient would not be diagnosed with asthma. Does the diagnosis negate the way that the patient feels in his daily activity? No, the patient still feels the same way, even though the objective tests prove that he doesn't have asthma. So what is my point. There is a difference between subjective feelings and objective facts. We all have subjective feelings that no one can take away from us, but objective things have to be proven by actual facts and data.
Feelings have a number of factors that will adjust how an event will affect a person. And two people who go through the same event doesn't always see it in the same way or the same light. It is the acceptance that we don't view matters in the same way is what is key.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Outlaw. I never said that my personal experience is proof of anything other than my personal experience and how I view Witnesses and Watchtower. Again there are plenty of things that I wish Watchtower did not say or do or believe. But you want to condemn an entire group of people because of what occurred to you. What occurred to you may not have occurred to anyone else. People may not view it in the same way as you do. But you want to say that they are wrong because they don't agree with you. Watchtower and JWs do the exact same thing. So either you are better than them and accept that people have different views than you and their experiences make them see things differently or your no better than the thing that you rail against.